I am still amazed this idea has not been out to rest yet. There are so many problems with idea that I do not know where to begin.
Railcars - you need to buy these at a cost of twice as much per seat as a bus. Each 40 seat rail car will cost you more than a double decker bus. To make them worth their money, you need to make twice the use of them.
The Route - let us say that you can get the E and N line for free. The route would have to be significantly upgraded - at a minimum you need to double track the whole route, something that is not possible at various spots along the route. There are spots in Esquimalt where the buildings on either side are only 16 metres apart.
The route would also play havoc with traffic at numerous spots along the route. As an example at Esquimalt Road the line crosses in such a way as to an oblique and dramatic angle. To deal with this problem, a four lane over pass would have to be built for the road at a cost of tens of millions of dollars.
The end of the route would require something to be done about the pedestrian and cycle traffic over the Johnson Street bridge. The route from the roundhouse would have to single track. Only one train at a time could discharge in downtown at a time. This would limit how often trains could arrive downtown and limit the the capacity of the network. I suspect this would limit it to only once every 10 minutes. A four car train would bring in about 150 people if it was full. That would be less than 1000 people per hour into downtown.
You can also look at the intersection with Lampson or at Admirals. Both locations would have huge problems with traffic management. The only access to the Esquimalt Reserve would be effectively cut off unless you did some major road rebuilding. We have not even reached View Royal and the tab for simply managing the road issues is reaching something close to $100 000 000. This does not include anything to do with the actual cost of building the rail line needed.
In View Royal we have some interesting problems. Where do you put the station? There is no space at the Old Island Highway where the tracks go over the road unless you pave over Portage Park. The route would need several four bridges to be built one of which would be over 100 metres long.
The comes the nightmare corner - Goldstream and Veteran's Memorial Parkway. The cost to fix that location will be in the $50 000 000 to $100 000 000 range, assuming it is possible to do at all. The intersection of Jacklin and Dunford is not as bad, but still a problem.
Between CFB Esquimalt and the centre of Langford, the route has very limited density. In large part this is because people did not want to live next to the tracks. There is very little traffic to be picked up along the way.
If one were to only go as fas as Goldstream Ave and avoided that nightmare intersection, about 12 km of track would have to be built - yes, the whole track has to be rebuilt because it is not built to a standard to allow for trains moving at anything above a crawl. How much would it cost to built this 12 km commuter rail?
Rail cars - you would need about about 16 of them, this would cost you about $20 000 000
Intersection rebuilds would add another $100 000 000
12 km of double track rail would cost you about $50 000 000 - this assumes the engineering needs keep it all simple.
You would need to expand the right of way by about the equivalent of 100 city lots. That would run you another $50 000 000 - ball park.
A rail maintenance yard has to be built - $30 000 000
We where are we at cost-wise? $250 000 000. This is working from an existing right of way. If we push to another 2.5 km further westwards the costs rise to over $350 000 000.
That is a lot of money for 10 000 passenger trips a day. The interest on this amount would be about $13 000 000 a year, or about $4 per passenger trip.
What I have not even touched on is the higher operating cost of the trains when compared to buses.
At best you would be saving about 10 minutes on the bus. The time savings would be zero once there is a bus lane.
Everyone thinking about rail for this region needs to give their head a serious shake, it is fundamentally economically flawed.
11 comments:
I don't have time to go through all the points you make, and you do make some good ones. However, some things to consider.
1) I live in the Western Communities, well, until the end of the month when I move back to town to get away from the solid mass of cars that regularly backs up to Thetis Lake most mornings now. The main problem is getting people from out here to town. Once you get to View Royal, the bus service actually becomes quite good so there's no need, at least at the moment, for rail service in this area, trains can just continue downtown.
What IS needed is some sort of commuter run from Duncan south with pickups in Langford continuing to downtown, and busses simply will not be able to compete with a train no question.
2) Your comments about trains messing with traffic is moot because, well frankly, that's the point. To get people out of their cars in the first place and there's no better way to be fuming in your car as a train passes you by. All that is needed is upgraded crossing gates and signals, not overpasses.
I believe there is a balance that can be met with both busses and trains serving the area. The concept of carving up Douglas Street for a busway is absurd and flawed to start with, and building dedicated transit bridges over the McKenzie intersection when it should be properly interchanged is also completey misguided.
Yes, rail is initially expensive and some upgrades are needed but overall, it IS the better way to go and will be far cheaper than building dedicated bus lanes from Victoria to the Malahat.
Your numbers are also very inflated and frankly wrong but, well, as I said, I simply don't have the time to dispute everything you've said, and I suspect there's no point as I'm smelling a BC Transit fan here ;)
By demanding perfection you are killing the good.
I 100% agree with Anonymous; Your "facts are out to lunch; as are YOU!
GET RAIL TRANSIT NOW!
I fail to understand the dislike of buses as an option and the desire for an inflexible and very expensive rail system?
As of this time I can not find a business case that can show an affordable way to build and operate a rail transit system in the Capital Regional District.
Who pays for it to be built and who pays to operate it?
seems like it would be nice to have, as to who would pay for it, well, the numbers that I hear tossed about are in the 12 million dollars range, and that's not much in comparison to the 1.2 billion for the sewage treatment centre... but victoria has about 5 million budgeted through the PTF (http://www.infrastructure.gc.ca/ip-pi/public_trans_commun/pt_can_bc_e.shtml) and it should have no problem applying for infrastructure funding under other programs as well...
Well if you think that we along the tracks of the E&N who have been fighting against this destruction of our neighborhood,. And make it a ghetto stop in the line, no stops you’re your traffic chopping us up to g will put up with this so you get to work easier?
Meh ! Not like our community isn’t traveled enough. No sir, not like the island highway, old island highway, E&N, park and rides, bike paths all from all west shore traffic jammers. Where are the over passes at Mackenzie and Tillicum and the island highway that would solve it Sooo much cheaper? Or the making of a two lane out of Esq/VR on admirals that would get rid of the crawl?
No, you’d rather make our lives a living traffic jam, made even worse with more frequent rail traffic. You have a billion dollar highway that you could put a elevated light rapid transit system that’s near all the park and rides and going through high traffic areas STRAIGHT into town.
Yep the back of my property, that I was insured like a decade go would not have rapid transit, only E&N traffic, that we fought to stop coming through OUR area. And now their trying to put a bike trail with this incredibly silly rail line. WTF?
If you want all the amenities and perks? I suggest you move into town like WE do. We PAID lots of money to live here in town .
What Mr Hill may think, is WRONG. And I promise he will be gone from here politically for this attack on the people who live in VW.
He doesn’t speak for the majority of us and I was just only informed tonight about this “yet again” multiple attempt to put a slice through our community.
Don’t you dictate what will go through our area for your convince or the lie of needing rapid transit over fake GW agenda. Bus service already exists and is good, plus the corroders already exist. Douglas St., Island highway and the Colwood strip have all adjacent communities access, every possible angle for business/bus exchanges/ hospital and hub of the Victoria lying areas. So get a grip.
I dare you to bring hell to our small local communities and destroy what we’ve built and paid a lot for. We’ll sue the pants off you.
It’s the highway or no way, period.
Lance Lamont
Well if you think that we along the tracks of the E&N who have been fighting against this destruction of our neighborhood,. And make it a ghetto stop in the line, no stops you’re your traffic chopping us up to g will put up with this so you get to work easier?
Meh ! Not like our community isn’t traveled enough. No sir, not like the island highway, old island highway, E&N, park and rides, bike paths all from all west shore traffic jammers. Where are the over passes at Mackenzie and Tillicum and the island highway that would solve it Sooo much cheaper? Or the making of a two lane out of Esq/VR on admirals that would get rid of the crawl?
No, you’d rather make our lives a living traffic jam, made even worse with more frequent rail traffic. You have a billion dollar highway that you could put a elevated light rapid transit system that’s near all the park and rides and going through high traffic areas STRAIGHT into town.
Yep the back of my property, that I was insured like a decade go would not have rapid transit, only E&N traffic, that we fought to stop coming through OUR area. And now their trying to put a bike trail with this incredibly silly rail line. WTF?
If you want all the amenities and perks? I suggest you move into town like WE do. We PAID lots of money to live here in town .
What Mr Hill may think, is WRONG. And I promise he will be gone from here politically for this attack on the people who live in VW.
He doesn’t speak for the majority of us and I was just only informed tonight about this “yet again” multiple attempt to put a slice through our community.
Don’t you dictate what will go through our area for your convince or the lie of needing rapid transit over fake GW agenda. Bus service already exists and is good, plus the corroders already exist. Douglas St., Island highway and the Colwood strip have all adjacent communities access, every possible angle for business/bus exchanges/ hospital and hub of the Victoria lying areas. So get a grip.
I dare you to bring hell to our small local communities and destroy what we’ve built and paid a lot for. We’ll sue the pants off you.
It’s the highway or no way, period.
Lance Lamont
<< (Very sorry, I made some correction on that chicken scratch)
Well if you think that we along the tracks of the E&N who have been fighting against this destruction of our neighborhood,. And make it a ghetto stop in the line, no stops, traffic chopping us up? WE will not put up with this, so you get to work easier? Hehe?
Meh ! Not like our community isn’t traveled thru enough. No sir, not like the island highway, old island highway, E&N, park and rides, bike paths all from all west shore traffic jammers. Where are the over passes at Mackenzie and Tillicum, the island highway that would solve it Sooo much cheaper?
Or the making of a two lane out of Esq/VR on admirals that would get rid of the crawl?
No, you’d rather make our lives a living traffic jam, made even worse with more frequent rail traffic. You have a billion dollar highway that you could put a elevated light rapid transit system that’s near all the park and rides and going through high traffic areas STRAIGHT into town.
Yep the back of my property, that I was insured like a decade go would not have rapid transit, only E&N traffic, that we fought to stop coming through OUR area. And now their trying to put a bike trail with this incredibly silly rail line. WTF?
If you want all the amenities and perks? I suggest you move into town like WE do. We PAID lots of money to live here in town .
What Mr Hill may think, is WRONG. And I promise he will be gone from here politically for this attack on the people who live in VW.
He doesn’t speak for the majority of us and I was just only informed tonight about this “yet again” multiple attempt to put a slice through our community.
Don’t you dictate what will go through our area for your convince or the lie of needing rapid transit over fake GW agenda. Bus service already exists and is good, plus the corroders already exist. Douglas St., Island highway and the Colwood strip have all adjacent communities access, every possible angle for business/bus exchanges/ hospital and hub of the Victoria lying areas. So get a grip.
I dare you to bring hell to our small local communities and destroy what we’ve built and paid a lot for. We’ll sue the pants off you.
It’s the highway or no way, period.
Lance Lamont
I want a rail system. 'nuff said.
People will not get out of their cars for busses, period. They are slow, over-crowded, make too many stops, load passengers one at a time and frequency of pickups is low. People will jump out of their cars in the western community aboard light rail to get to work, I can guarantee.
Please stop wasting fuel tax and other tax money on *more* and/or faster buses, subsidized routes etc... we need light rail!
The only argument that is needed is... people won't take the crappy busses in mass because, it just doesn't work for most people!?
Forget how much it costs bus vs LRT... upgrading bus service is a waste from the start because it won't get people like myself out of our cars.
That last comment is interesting in the light of the fact that people in Victoria use the bus already and do so more than most US cities that have introduced light rail.
There is little evidence to show that adding rail increases transit use to any dramatic sense. All successful light rail introductions have followed successful bus routes that could no longer cope with the traffic volumes
The fact is we need better public transportation out in the western communities. A light rail will bring workers to downtown. Also Langford is growing will become the new "downtown". All you pro bus transit are forgetting that if there is no decent transportation to Victoria no one will continue to work there. Another point that is being missed is that a light rail will eliminate cars and their pollution. So is that not most important for our planet?
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